This conversation took place on the empty back patio of NoDa Bodega on 1200 E 36th Street in Charlotte, NC on 09/17/2021
Length [01:18:55]
James [00:00:17] So I went through a bunch of your old interviews, at least the ones on your website and a lot of what I wanted to talk to you about we already talked about earlier today, and—
Jeff [00:00:35] That’s okay. We can talk about it again.
James [00:00:44] The ideas of J. G. Ballard. I was really interested in what we were talking about. I find it in my own writing that I will purposely try to write a short story in a manner, or about subject matter I've never done before because I felt like I needed to diversify my portfolio more.
I felt like I was always writing about the same things.
And then you said something about how you heard J. G. Ballard say to lean into your obsessions. Do you know of any drawback of leaning into your obsessions?
Jeff [00:01:22] I mean, I think the danger is that an obsession can become a mannerism. They can sort of calcify into a mannerism. But I think if you're being honest about the obsession then you're fine.
Because the obsession should be something that's animating the work without a lot of conscious pressure from you.
So if it's not doing that, then maybe it's no longer your obsession or maybe it's not an obsession for that piece.
I think the danger is that. If it just becomes a habit. A reflex. Then it's a danger. But if it's a real obsession it should be something that has a magnetic pull on its own.
James [00:02:34] For me, I never wanted to feel like I was just rewriting the same thing. And it's a big thing I think a lot of writers might do.
I've talked to a lot of friends who just have a problem not finishing their projects and then they try to do something completely different to take their mind off of this project. So I honestly think it just goes back to finishing.
Jeff [00:02:59] Yeah, I think that's part of it. I don't know. I don't think just because an obsession animates something doesn't mean that it takes the same form each time.
James [00:03:14] I agree with that.
Jeff [00:03:14] I mean, you see that in Ballard. He's obsessed with dead astronauts and drained swimming pools. All this stuff, even in the short stories, takes radically different forms. The empty beaches, things like that.
Like formally he's doing a lot of different things with those. And when he sort of exhausts an obsession, I think the obsession is different from the one before.
Norman Mailer talked about how the danger with experience is that you want to rush headlong into it and write about it, like looking at it in the eye. And he said that's great. But, generally, you burn it out and you can get a book out of it, maybe, but then it's done.
But he said what he learned when he was older is that that experience can be like a prism of all these different facets, and if you're constantly turning it and getting all these different aspects of it, you can get a bunch of books out of it. Instead of just burning through that, it's something that can actually be fuel.
It's also like facing a prism, and so you keep turning it to the light and you keep seeing different things.
James [00:04:40] Yeah, what a diamond does. I mean, that you can rotate it from different angles.
Jeff [00:04:44] Another thing is thinking of your experiences and obsessions is something that you're manipulating and that aren't just manipulating you.
James [00:04:47] Does that happen along the way?
Jeff [00:04:49] Sure.
[[At this point in the interview I could hear the inauthenticity in my voice. Like I was being micromanaged by the future. I decided to point out the obvious.]]
James [00:04:59] I mean...It's weird because whenever the tape recorder's on a conversation feels different, I hate it.
Jeff [00:05:07] Yeah, it's just the nature of it. It's just the nature of the beast.
James [00:05:13] You see where it is [points to the recorder on the table] like I'm observing how this material will be later. I'm not present. Because I'm not having to worry about being here now because this is our share of energy—Hello—
Waitress [00:05:27] Ham and Cheese?
James [00:05:28] Yes!
Jeff [00:05:28] Thank you so much…Yeah. I mean, well, you know, as long as this is going to get edited. I will try not to edit my words in my head.
James [00:05:36] Yeah don't worry about it. I mean, you're going to see every version of it anyway. But like I...
Jeff [00:05:43] I mean, the questions are more complicated, so it's also trying to figure out the answers is a little bit tougher than just going back and forth. It's tougher, you know? Some of these things are just harder to explain even to yourself.
James [00:06:04] Like what you said about the obsession thing, sometimes I feel like I'm looking too much down the road. The culmination of the body of work I’ll leave behind.
Jeff [00:06:32] Yeah no you can't do that, no, you can't. It's poisonous.
James [00:06:37] I wasted a lot of time when I first started writing. And I wonder if writers bailout because they're looking too much at that. And then one day they look down at their desks and they're like, where am I? The best thing that ever happened to me was just going, ‘what if it's just this book?’ That has freed up my mind and focus more than anything.
Jeff [00:07:00] Yeah. I mean, I think for me it works sort of both ways for like this book is the only thing that matters right now.
[00:07:06] [biting into sandwich]
James [00:07:07] This is so fucking good. Oh my God.
Jeff [00:07:09] Yeah. It's a really good place. [laughs]
James [00:07:10] This is fantastic.
Jeff [00:07:15] Yeah, no, it's like, yeah, it's legit.
James [00:07:19] Holy shit dude. This is the best ham and cheese I've ever had in my life.
[00:07:21] [shared laughter]
Jeff [00:07:23] Yeah, it's a great neighborhood spot because not a lot of people know it and it's like super legit, but they make enough money to stay in business.
James [00:07:31] That is the best way to do it, by the way. Yeah, you can't spoil it if you keep it that way.
Jeff [00:07:39] Yeah. So. I mean, to me it's also refreshing to know that there can be another book. Because all the energy's going into this book and this project. But also if there's material that doesn't fit, to me it's been reassuring to be like, “There will be another book.” And that material could find a home somewhere else.
Like it was really hard for me with Mira Corpora. It took me a long time to cut the 150 pages from it. Because it was some of the best writing in the book. And I didn't want to let it go because it was the best prose I had written, but it didn't belong. And finally thinking about, oh, it might have another life somewhere else, which it did (some of it ended up in went into Novi Sad).
It was really helpful for me and letting that material go by and not trying to force it where it didn't belong. Because I trust that it will have a life. It's really good, it will have a life somewhere else. I can reshape it into something else and it'll be that.
James [00:08:38] Where do you get that faith?
Jeff [00:08:41] I mean, you know, faith and delusion are pretty close to each other. [laughs]
James [00:08:56] Hold on.
[00:08:56] [notepad flips open]
James [00:08:56] In 1991 a nationwide study in America found that delusions are found overwhelmingly in the general population, but are not so bad to deem it a major mental health concern. The truth is that delusions are not confining but can be helpful in your day-to-day life. Good example: religion is technically a delusion.
Jeff [00:09:16] A friend of mine was telling me she met this guy who's like a soccer scout.
James [00:09:20] Mhm.
Jeff [00:09:20] Like a professional soccer scout in Europe.
James [00:09:22] Mhm.
Jeff [00:09:22] And, um, he goes to a lot of games where like 9, 10, 11-year-olds are playing.
James [00:09:27] Okay.
Jeff [00:09:27] And she asks him, what do you look for? Like, what's the number one skill?
James [00:09:32] Mhm.
Jeff [00:09:32] And he said, I don't look for skill. He said the first thing I look for is the level of delusion.
James [00:09:40] [laughs maniacally]
Jeff [00:09:40] He said I'm looking for the kids who have so much faith in themselves that they're going to become good or great. He said the level of skill at that point is actually somewhat negligible and can be acquired. He said what he looks for is the level of self-assurance that borders on pathological delusion.
James [00:09:59] That's beautiful.
Jeff [00:09:59] Which I thought was fascinating.
James [00:10:01] Well, they're also in that ripe age where they're still doing fantastical thinking right near the edge of adolescence.
[00:10:14] [both bite into sandwiches] [chewing]
James [00:10:17] It feels very applicable to art.
Jeff [00:10:18] Doesn't it?
James [00:10:20] Yeah, there's kind of a part that doesn't go away, I think. [points at head]
Jeff [00:10:24] No, I don't think it does.
James [00:10:30] [swallowing]
Jeff [00:10:30] I do agree in terms of thinking this is the only book...I try never, ever to save an idea for later if it fits in this project.
If it fits in this project, I'm spending everything I have that works on this project, not saving anything for like, oh, that's a great idea. But I should save it for that novel idea I had about X or Y. I'm like, if it fits here. It goes here. I spend whatever I have to spend on this.
If it doesn't fit and it won't work, then sure it doesn't. It doesn't belong. But I never, ever save something for another project if it will fit in the one I have.
James [00:11:07] I can't even think to another project. I have a saved section where I'm just like, this doesn’t fit but it gives me the good kind of heebie-jeebies, which is my body trying to tell me something, but I can't see where it fits. Well, I mean, the hard part is like you don't even know if it fits in the project yet. Okay, so that's that murky area that I spent, and I think a lot of writers spend, too much time trying to navigate.
Jeff [00:11:37] It's trying to I mean, I think—
James [00:11:38] Except for listening to your own intuition.
Jeff [00:11:40] I think everyone. I mean, I know I'm this way. Like, I try and know more than I can know at the time. And I always have to remind myself, like, I'm not going to know this till later. I'm not going to know if this fits in until later. So I just do my best and keep moving and plant seeds for later Jeff, who will have to deal with this.
James [00:12:01] I'm in there right now. Isn't great when it works though?
Jeff [00:12:05] It's great when it works. But I mean it's also like it's another sense of having faith or delusion that it will be clear at some point later even though it is not clear to me now.
James [00:12:14] Mhm.
Jeff [00:12:15] And I can bang my head against the wall for the next three weeks. And it is still not going to be clear because it probably won't be clear for another six months.
So, therefore just do the best I can, bang my head against the wall a little bit, and then keep moving.
James [00:12:29] You have to learn to live with an unfinished project that's sitting in a temporal land in this liminal space. And it's uncomfortable. And you're literally giving yourself tension, and you're carrying it for, I don't know. For me, it's a year and a half. And guess what? New draft. It's more complicated. After I cleaned it up. [laughs]
Jeff [00:13:26] Mhm.
James [00:13:27] And the story's clearer to me, but not totally. But now I really want to know more. What are we doing here, guys? Who are these people like? What were they planning? And those little seeds I planted, I was like, holy shit. They work.
Jeff [00:13:46] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:47] [breeze blows a napkin off the table]
Jeff [00:13:49] It's always a process of becoming...
James [00:13:53] The oh, here's a good question. Is there a level of being too fantastical for literary fiction, I mean, for the market, yes, but in your opinion.
Jeff [00:14:09] No.
[00:14:10] [sirens]
Jeff [00:14:13] I mean, I'm not sure I even know literary fiction is.
James [00:14:17] I don't if anybody does.
Jeff [00:14:25] I mean, I think there's literature and probably not literature, and I think for literature, it can be whatever it can be, anything.
And you make your own rules and the art makes its own rules and it can be as fantastical as it needs to be. Yeah, I don't think there's any boundaries on that. I don't think there's any boundaries on how abject something can be. How designed something could be. How irreverent something could be, how horrific...whatever.
James [00:15:12] Yeah
Jeff [00:15:14] The proof is in the object itself. I think a lot of great art comes out of places you wouldn't expect it to come out of.
James [00:15:23] I 100% agree with that.
Jeff [00:15:25] And so. You could you know, it's very plausible that someone writing in a fantasy mode can create great literature, you know? Or whatever mode, you know? Or no mode, you know?
James [00:15:42] I also think that, like. I can only speak for the conversations that I've overheard or read or on podcasts and stuff.
A lot of the complaints I hear and I used to agree with where, you know, science fiction should be counted as literary fiction or this and that.
It's kind of like…isn't that kind of looking at your art from the publishing point of view, which is kind of not your responsibility right now when you're working?
Jeff [00:16:06] Right.
James [00:16:06] So, like, why would you change your story to be too much or too little fantasized when you're not even there yet?
Jeff [00:16:18] Yeah, I mean hasn't science fiction been considered literary or literature, like at the high level for a while. I mean, did Philip K. Dick not exist? Did [indecipherable] not exist? Did Ursula K. Le Guin not exist?
James [00:16:42] I think it's looked down on.
Jeff [00:16:44] By who? I don't know. I also think I mean…I think genre should come later anyway. Because I do think it is more like a marketing thing.
James [00:16:59] I don't think we should worry about it. I think that's for other people to decide. I think I think the artist should be the last person to decide the genre.
Jeff [00:17:07] Yeah. I mean, I was happy when Destroy All Monsters was included on a list of like ten horror novels you might have overlooked.
James [00:17:14] Really?
Jeff [00:17:15] Yeah. A lot of people buy horror. I was like, cool, someone saw it through a different lens would have seen. But seems equally valid to me.
I think someone had put Novi Sad out on a list of science fiction. Because it's very apocalyptic. And I was like, okay, sure, whatever.
Jeff [00:17:40] Where else could it go?
Jeff [00:17:42] I mean, it could go any number of places, but uh—
James [00:17:45] But that's the part where it fell out of our hands because there's the framing around it.
Jeff [00:17:54] It's someone else's perception of it.
James [00:17:56] But if somebody labels it as something, that is going to cognitively frame the experience of the book [for the reader], isn't it? I've always worried about that.
Jeff [00:18:05] Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, it is true that, like, if you're someone who reads horror in a narrow genre sense, I'm not really sure what Destroy All Monsters gives you. It's more likely to frustrate your expectations because it's not trying to satisfy those demands. So in that sense, maybe. Although maybe it helps to open or widened someone's definition of horror.
James [00:18:38] Yeah. No, totally.
Jeff [00:18:38] They're excited by that. Yeah. You know, I mean, who knows? I think something is genre fiction when the writer is really thinking about genre conventions and about meeting those conventions or subverting those conventions consciously, that's when you really are playing within a genre.
And I think, like, that can be fun if that's something you're interested in doing. Definitely not me. I'm never thinking about genre. I'm never thinking about conventions in that way.
James [00:19:13] It slows me down too much.
Jeff [00:19:16] Yeah. I mean, there are some people who that's sort of like the court they want to play within.
James [00:19:21] But who defines the rules for the genre? Like if they're trying to push it, is there a committee that's like, all right, if you're going to play with it, here are the ground rules for you to be the derivative.
Jeff [00:19:33] I mean, I guess it's more like these are a lot of the tropes that you see in a lot of these books. And if you start to introduce that trope, the readers can assume certain things. So you can sort of play them.
I mean, that's like in Chinatown, for instance, the idea that the female character, Mrs. Mulwray is sort of built up with the idea that you watch a lot of film noir, that she's a sort of femme fatale.
And in fact, Jack Nicholson's character believes that she is, because he believes that she's killed her husband. And I think the audience is sort of led because of all the noir elements in Chinatown to also believe that. But in fact, that's not the case at all.
James [00:20:12] Okay.
Jeff [00:20:13] In fact, it’s his expectation of that. And the audience's expectations about that are subverted because she's in fact a victim. And the fact that he blames her and assumes that she is, that is really what causes the tragedy at the end because if he had believed her she wouldn't have put her in this situation where she has to, like, try and escape and is unable to.
Jeff [00:20:30] [sips soda] [smacks lips]
James [00:20:33] Oh, okay. Oh. I didn't see it that way.
Jeff [00:20:37] But I think Robert Towne is playing with his ideas of film noir and your expectations of, oh if this woman acts a certain way and she's mysterious in a certain way and her husband's dead. She's probably this sort of like femme fatale type character because all the indicators are there.
And if you've watched a lot of film noir, you're like, I've seen this movie before. I know what you're doing.
James [00:20:58] Yeah.
Jeff [00:20:58] And so he's playing with that expectation.
James [00:21:01] He's subverting it.
Jeff [00:21:01] He's subverting it. And not just for the viewer, but also for the main character who's also living by these same expectations, and then showing the tragic implications of those assumptions. So it's working on several levels, not just one.
James [00:21:15] So he's generating a truly unique outcome by being unconventional, even with all the required elements of that genre?
Jeff [00:21:28] Well, he's also playing on the expectations of that genre that the viewers bring to the movie.
James [00:21:36] So that was the intentional part.
Jeff [00:21:37] Yes.
James [00:21:38] That's the art.
Jeff [00:21:40] That's the art. And that's, I think, the art of genre. It's taking the expectations that have sort of accrued around certain types of stories. And you think you know what's going to happen, and then try to play with those.
James [00:21:50] Okay so—
Jeff [00:21:50] So this was like what Philip K. Dick does with a lot of the sci-fi stuff like, oh, this sort of like Asimov's story would normally sort of play out this way. But Philip K. Dick is going to turn it on its head.
James [00:22:03] That’s how Ubik went for me.
Jeff [00:22:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.
James [00:22:05] Actually The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch, I was like, I know where this is going. And then I'm like, no, I don't. I never did. Oh my God.
Do you think you need to do well if you're going to subvert expectations?
Jeff [00:22:22] Well, I don't even know if it's planned. I know for Robert Town it was, and I bet for Philip K. Dick it was on some level. I mean, he was immersed in sci-fi.
James [00:22:28] It also presents a challenge to the writer….See, I just used ‘presents’ but I would never say that without a tape recorder on. I feel so fake.
Jeff [00:22:39] [laughs].
James [00:22:39] I think you get to challenge yourself, which is fun. I would be bored if I followed convention. But I like certain stories, but I don't want to copy them.
Jeff [00:22:49] Yeah, yeah.
James [00:22:50] And so, like. I wonder if it'd be good to give yourself the unique challenge to be in an unknowing gap where you're trying to feel what would happen. So it's something new for you — it's novel.
Jeff [00:23:04] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can see that. I mean, I think there's a reason why a bunch of literary writers have, like, you know, tried their hand at detective novels.
James [00:23:13] Yeah.
Jeff [00:23:14] Because it's like, what can I do? What can I do with this form that's new? But also I don't have to reinvent things whole cloth.
James [00:23:23] No. And you know, I find it helpful sometimes to lean into convention whenever I feel like I'm forcefully pushing against convention, sometimes I need that for a transition. And it works in a way where everything around that point of transition is unconventional. And then you use a conventional transition because it's sandwiched in between unconventional elements, the transition, therefore, becomes unconventional.
Jeff [00:23:48] Yeah, yeah, no, no. I mean, everything's contextual. I mean, it's sort of like with that raw piece of wood. In my installation, like it's when do you need something that's some weird thing that sticks out and when do you need something that is something more elegant, you know? And when having the raw piece of wood that sticks out actually make everything around it more elegant in a way?
James [00:24:13] Yeah.
Jeff [00:24:14] And so I think it's all part of your, you know, toolbox or whatever. I mean, all these things are to be used. It's like in the seventies, they talk about like the total soccer, this idea of playing the game — not just having one style, but having all these different sorts of styles you can draw from.
James [00:24:38] Yeah.
Jeff [00:24:42] Techniques or whatever, I mean, not that we always have those, but it's a nice ideal.
James [00:24:50] Yeah, I usually just call them envelopes like if I can come back to this, if I need to check this out and see if I can apply it somewhere if I get stuck, I don't know if they feel like fall-back plans sometimes though.
[00:24:57] [shuffling of papers]
James [00:25:00] I had this idea—I don't know if this will make sense. Let's just read it directly from the paper [flips open notebook]. By thinking of the novel as a reverse contemplation and as opposed to starting with a single subject and following it to its end. Since it's so sprawled at the beginning, you start at the tips of all the branches to find the trunk and the meditative aspect of that.
I would say a lot of the novels that I read, do somewhat, well, that don't feel like someone sat and thought. Do you think it's important to sit with a project for a long time or just as long as it needs?
Jeff [00:25:54] I mean, for me, it all feels time-based like I have to I have to sit with it for a while to figure out what it is. I sort of daydream about someday I'll be able to write something in a white heat, like supposedly Faulkner wrote As I Lay Dying in six weeks.
James [00:26:13] What?
Jeff [00:26:14] While working a railroad job.
James [00:26:17] Has anybody confirmed this?
Jeff [00:26:19] I mean, knowing Faulkner it’s probably bullshit. But I think he wrote really fast. Like, I think six weeks is probably an exaggeration because he was nothing, if not an exaggerator. But um, I think there's truth to it.
I mean, a lot of those books were coming out of him really, really fast and that would be great to have some book to sort of fall out of the sky. To have As I Lay Dying fall out of the sky for you—
James [00:26:46] That would be wonderful.
Jeff [00:26:47] Yeah, that would be awesome. But I don't think that that's necessarily realistic. And generally, the way I work is slow. And, you know, the way I've done theater has always been slow. We've generated projects over a couple of years. It takes a while. And my friend Jim, my collaborator, says theater always talked about it needs time to grow a muscle mass.
James [00:27:11] Mhm. Okay.
Jeff [00:27:11] And so I think about that sometimes a novel, it just takes time to grow this stuff. But I don't know, I mean, I'd like to get faster writing, so I'd like to hope that I don't have to sit with things and meditate over them so long. But that seems to be my process.
James [00:27:40] [scratching beard]
Jeff [00:27:46] I mean, are you saying…do you think…I mean, are you, like, feeling a lack of meditation in the work itself? Are you feeling a lack of…consideration?
James [00:28:00] I'm feeling a lack of consistency in the way that it's relayed, which indicates to me that there's a lack of ritual, because it's coming to me from every different way, it's either I'm being as open as humanly possible, which is a good thing, or I'm being sporadic and I'm driving myself insane.
But really, all it's been is I'll take it however I can get it and then fix it. And it's just taking me longer. I mean, I used to think that after nine months and it's only at a certain point as opposed to having faith.
Okay, so I'll give you an example. The first thing I wrote. I found it. I found it recently. It's sixty-seven page PDF document. And it was just when I was brand spanking new and I had a storage unit beneath our one-bedroom apartment and I was out there with like a space heater during winter every morning before work and I would just write for three hours a day to see if I could do it. I just want to see if I could reach 50,000 words. It is the most incoherent fucking good shit because I had no expectations. I love it. I just never finished. And I've realized the benefit of finishing things.
Jeff [00:29:08] Yeah.
James [00:29:08] And there is a huge thing where I go, you'll be happy you finished it. I don't feel like editing. I have no spirit and it's like I only have faith in finishing things. It has yet to not reward me over time.
And I get little rewards across the way when it works, when things start to I mean, I'm telling you, a year and a half ago, it was just this…it looks like a psychosis. It was just so bad and then I did this. And that. No consistency on how it's coming.
I wish I could just sit and write them. I feel weird following my bliss because I don't know if it's me being reactionary or if I'm being guided towards it. And some of the changes, I feel like I need to make are so big that it couldn't be the right thing to do.
Jeff [00:30:02] Because they're so big?
James [00:30:06] That's what I thought, and then I started doing it and it worked. Like it took forever. Once I recognized what the book was about, I think a ritual developed around the book as the book developed, because it's a reflection of the book.
It's hard to explain without divulging how the book is, but there's something about being intentional, because we talked about being intentional a lot today, but there's a huge part of it…like…I guess with being okay with not knowing what you're getting...is that it, I guess?
Jeff [00:30:51] I think having to make big changes to work is.
James [00:30:56] I thought that just came to the territory.
Jeff [00:30:57] Oh, yes, I think it does. I mean, that's something I had more experience in before I was writing for theater because we’ve had two occasions where we made massive changes before opening night to have projects, or one case after opening night.
I mean. One of the first plays we did, Damfino, it worked in pieces, but we had never put the whole thing together and the whole thing did not work. It was awful. It held water for the first 15 minutes—first 30 minutes. Then it started to get a little questionable, then it got worse and worse and worse, and then by the end, like we were just like, this is terrible, what have we done?
And went and closed down the bar, and we stayed until 6 AM rearranging the entire play.
James [00:31:56] I remember reading about this.
Jeff [00:31:56] Rearranging entire scenes of the play and cutting out a lot of material, and it worked, but like we had to radically rethink it and then make one of the next plays we did. Oh, was so awful.
It was almost…I guess it was maybe like an hour and 40 minutes on opening night. And then it was 15 minutes the second night, really, we cut that much material out and then over the course of the next week, we'd start to add stuff back in.
But we had to get down to like, okay, what actually worked? And there's 50 minutes worked, but there was like we cut out, you know. We cut out a huge amount, you know.
James [00:32:33] When you're saying "it works", what's your definition of that?
Jeff [00:32:45] In theater, I can watch it and I'm still interested and I don't want to, like, crawl under my chair before I leave the theater.
James [00:32:52] Okay. [laughs]
Jeff [00:32:55] Or like scrawl a really large note, a note in my notepad about like "Get me out of here. This sucks."
[00:33:03] [both laugh]
Jeff [00:33:06] It's really like, does it hold my interest? And that for me is just the baseline of rubber hitting the road.
Okay, if this holds my interest, it has something. That doesn't mean it's great, but it means that it's holding my interest at some level and so we could get down to 50 minutes about, then the play held our interest. Then we were able to eventually get it back up to maybe like an hour and fifteen. It was never an hour and forty again.
Yeah, there’s nothing more brutal than looking at something you've made with an audience and you can tell they're not interested. And you're not interested.
James [00:33:52] That’s horrible.
Jeff [00:33:53] And the worst thing is you’re like, yeah, I'm with you. I'm not interested either.
James [00:33:57] Oh, that's the worst.
Jeff [00:33:58] And so it's just soul-killing. And you'll do anything to avoid having to experience that again. And so, like, you'll make the hard choices the next night.
James [00:34:11] Mhm.
Jeff [00:34:11] And that's like the really great thing about theater is how immediate it is.
James [00:34:16] Mhm.
Jeff [00:34:16] And also how humiliating it is. It's humiliating to sit in an audience of like 80 people and 20 of them are your friends and like, this sucks and you know it sucks.
And you're like, I've got to do better, you know. I've got to do better tomorrow.
James [00:34:33] The rejection is palpable.
Jeff [00:34:35] And it's justified. It's not like, ‘Oh, they didn't understand.’
James [00:34:40] That's the worst part.
Jeff [00:34:41] Yeah, no, that's the worst part. It's fine. Like, there are plenty of times that friends have come to see my shows and they didn't like it. What I can't take is when I am sitting in the audience and I don't like it.
James [00:34:53] Ugh.
Jeff [00:34:53] That's what I can't take. And that's what I'll go to any extreme to avoid. And that's why I will make major changes right away when we have to. And those changes have been good and healthy. And that's given me, I think, a lot of strength to do that with my writing.
James [00:35:13] Mhm.
Jeff [00:35:13] Even though it's a much slower process. And even though I'm more deliberate and thinking about it and all that, it's not that immediate. Like I wake up in the morning and I cut those 100 pages right now. It gives me the strength to know that, like, oh, major things are going to have to change here.
James [00:35:31] Yeah.
Jeff [00:35:31] And it'll be okay. It'll be okay. It'll get better. But in theater, it's like a physical experience.
James [00:35:40] I couldn't handle it.
Jeff [00:35:44] Brutal. Brutal. But, you know, but when it works and it gets better, it's also like super gratifying to see that like, oh, two days later, the show's a lot better. It really puts everything into this very physical reality.
James [00:35:59] When I showed Sam [Pink], my work in progress. The immense amount of shame, of like, in my soul I knew this was not where it needed to be. And I'm painfully grateful that I went through it. Kind of.
Jeff [00:36:15] Yeah. It's also like you're asking for someone's help in that case.
James [00:36:19] Yeah.
Jeff [00:36:27] When you're like, I know it's not where it needs to be and I need your help. And I think that's different from presenting it to a paying audience. Yeah, but in a way, that's insane.
James [00:36:30] That was the function they had. The downfall was that they didn't enlighten you. You were enlightened, yourself, in the present.
Jeff [00:36:40] They helped to focus.
James [00:36:44] Truly, I don't want to make you relive it, Jeff. [laughs]
Jeff [00:36:45] No, it's fine. Like they helped to focus what was wrong with it. I mean, there really is a thing about reading an audience. You feel the audience around. You feel how they're viscerally reacting and you feel their boredom and you feel their confusion.
James [00:37:00] Nope. I couldn't take it.
Jeff [00:37:03] You feel like you feel their attention wandering off.
James [00:37:10] [guttural "ah"].
Jeff [00:37:10] And you're like, I don't want to feel that again. So what can I do to make sure that doesn't happen? And that's different from someone just not liking it. There's … I don't know how to explain it, but intuitively, it's a palpable difference between and feeling an audience getting bored and wandering away, and an audience just not liking something.
It's working, but it's not for them, you know what I mean? And that's fine. Like, that's okay. There have been audiences that haven't liked our stuff and it wasn't for them. And that's okay because it was still a good show.
James [00:37:41] It's preference.
Jeff [00:37:42] Yeah.
James [00:37:43] But, it's almost like, when you have someone else watching it and it's not working, it's like it almost becomes absurd to you.
Jeff [00:37:52] Mhm. It does.
James [00:37:52] And it's not supposed to be absurd. That wasn't the intention. So it just becomes the absurdity of like ‘What was I doing?’
Jeff [00:37:58] It really puts everything into this very physical reality.
James [00:38:04] And that's good because it's clear because there's no mistaking. I mean, you have to be like, delusional in a bad way to not see like. This ain't happening, it forces you, to be honest, in a moment, like really honest.
Jeff [00:38:20] Yeah, and I really appreciate that, even though it's very painful to go through.
James [00:38:26] Okay, I just had a thought and I was going to follow it. Outside of getting feedback and stuff like that. All of your work really does have to love the elements of...I just really feel like you and Aleister Crowley would've been friends in a weird way.
Jeff [00:38:56] [laughs]
James [00:38:56] Just the idea of ritual and intention, things sit behind it, but, do you feel like you can smell when things were done unintentionally in other people's work?
Jeff [00:39:15] On some levels, yeah. I mean, there's certain things where, like, if someone's prose is sloppy.
James [00:39:17] Oh, yeah, you can totally tell.
Jeff [00:39:19] And there's also like certain structural things, if they're sloppy and it's not really thought through or it has this tantalizing idea that never sort of follows through on that, you know, that's all you can see.
The intention started. But it didn't go it didn't go through. Also, I think, there are certain writers where I'm just not on their wavelength. So I'm just not a good judge of that. And like, there may be a lot of intention behind it, but it's just not something I enjoy. And I think it's important to be humble when you're like, “This just isn't for me” or “I'm just a bad reader for this”.
James [00:40:08] Yeah, right.
Jeff [00:40:08] You know, like, there are definitely books that I'm a bad reader for. And there are certain books that I read in my twenties that I hated that I came back to that I think I'm a much better reader of because I’m older. And sometimes vice versa, maybe.
But, you know, there are certain writers that I'm really on their wavelength. I feel I can read it really clearly. And there are certain writers where it doesn't resonate for me or sometimes it doesn't make me even want to do the work of, like, figuring out the intention.
I was reading Nabokov's first book, Mary. Which is so good, not great, but there are things in there that are extraordinary that, like, I would not normally spend the time picking apart from, like another writer, but because it's him and I love his work, he's like really zeroed in on. A few things in that book that were worth my time to really unravel.
James [00:41:09] Yeah, do you find yourself deconstructing other people's work that you like?
Jeff [00:41:15] Sometimes. I mean, if there's something I think for me to learn from it, it's usually like I read it and then go back to it.
James [00:41:20] Right.
Jeff [00:41:27] But. Yeah, I mean, I think the best writing textbooks are novels.
James [00:41:29] Yeah, I agree.
Jeff [00:41:30] [bites sandwich] [chews]
Jeff [00:41:35] So I'm constantly looking for how to do something. I'm not looking in a how-to book about technique, I'm going to the source to figure out. How did [unintelligible] make this shift. How did [unintelligible] create this atmosphere of this character, how to, you know, whatever it is that I feel like might be useful.
James [00:42:03] Right.
Jeff [00:42:09] Without necessarily stealing it, just trying to get inspiration and just trying to see, like, how did someone pull this off.
James[00:42:18] [mouthful of sandwich] Mhm. Yeah. I'm the same.
James [00:42:26] As the project goes on, as it shifts, I shift. To where I'll get new recommendations from people on certain subject matter. That's opened up like, oh, that sounds like so-and-so's novel, see what they've done. What's in the general sphere.
Jeff [00:42:41] Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean. The things that often end up being helpful are sometimes things that are formerly similar, but subject matter wise really different.
James [00:42:52] Yeah.
Jeff [00:42:55] Lydia Davis has the one novel she's written, like, is really helpful for me in one of the new books I'm working on.
James [00:43:02] Okay.
Jeff [00:43:03] Because there's like a particular formal thing she was doing that was really interesting and helped me to understand related formal things I was trying to do.
James [00:43:12] Which novel? What's the novel called?
Jeff [00:43:12] The End Of The Story. Yeah, it's really it's a super, super interesting book. But like that was the subject matter of that book has nothing to do with.
Jeff [00:43:38] That was useful to look at for me and useful to like. Learn some, learn some from it.
James [00:43:47] Speaking of that, like. Sam told me something like that. You should take into consideration the changes to the experience of the work off of a formal format shift or change. How do you like the layout of the text?
Jeff [00:44:20] Oh, how that impacts readers.
James [00:44:22] I mean, it changes how you experience reading it.
Jeff [00:44:25] Yeah, I totally believe that. I mean Mira Corpora I designed the inside of that book and Two Dollar Radio followed it. And Destroy All Monsters, I designed that very intentionally.
It actually took three drafts to get it to where I wanted it from FSG. And it was really important, and actually, FSG normalized the layout the first time because the designer didn't read the book.
James [00:44:54] What do you mean by normalize?
Jeff [00:44:55] Took out. I had certain things that were a little bit indented. Certain things are in italics or things are a little bit smaller in fonts or things are a little bit larger. Certain things are bold and [the designer] just sort of made it all the same. And what it did is it made it very confusing to read.
What I had done was made it actually much easier for the reader. And in fact by “normalizing the text” made it indecipherable.
And so I really had to insist on ‘No, it has to be laid out this way because this is actually giving lots of subliminal cues to the reader about how to read it.’ I mean, the thing I really fought for the most on Destroy All Monsters.—fortunately, my editor was right on board with that. He was awesome—was that there had to be a flip. That you had to go over and upside down for the B-side. They wanted to print it just A-side. Then you go to the B-side.
James [00:45:51] Mhm.
Jeff [00:45:51] And they said you can have some explanatory text talking about the relationship. And I said no. I don't want to do that because by taking the book—
James [00:46:02] That would've ruined it.
Jeff [00:46:02] All you need to do to know everything about what happens is to physically take the book and flip it over and upside down. And that tells you everything about the relationship between the two sides. However, in a Kindle, you can't do that.
James [00:46:15] Oh well. [laughs internally]
Jeff [00:46:16] Yeah, no, no. And I think, like I think that really hurt the people I know who read the book on Kindle, I think it’s a much lesser experience because you did not have that physical turning the book over and upside down.
And so similar, like we were talking about The Dream of the Red Chamber with, like, taking off your shoes before you entered the theater piece and how that shifted expectations in a really radical way, that really helped the show.
Turning Destroy All Monsters, getting to the end of Side-A and then turning it over and upside down and starting Side-B was like said everything about my intention artistically, technically, formally, about how those two sides were connected.
James [00:46:54] It literally said what it meant.
Jeff [00:46:56] Yeah. And five pages of me explaining, it would have been far less effective.
James [00:47:03] And insults the intelligence of the reader. I know how to flip a fucking book over, you know?
Jeff [00:47:07] I mean, it was, but it was also that transformation needs to happen. It needs to be a physical act, I think. Because then you understand it on more than just an intellectual level.
James [00:47:21] It forces an intention.
Jeff [00:47:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
James [00:47:25] It's like saying the magic words.
Jeff [00:47:27] Yeah because it was tough because for FSG, it had two covers and then they had a French flap. So it's more expensive too.
James [00:47:35] That's called a French Flap?
Jeff [00:47:38] Yeah because you can't put a jacket copy with two covers. So, you just have the flap and inside that has the jacket copy.
James [00:47:47] Oh, I've never put that together in my life.
Jeff [00:47:50] Yeah, and so that's more expensive because most paperbacks don't have that flap, but it's called the French Flap when it has that inside. And so for this DAM, you had to have French Flap because you had no space for jacket copy because you two covers on the front in the back.
James [00:48:04] Dude, I never picked up on that.
Jeff [00:48:06] So you have to have French flaps because that's where you put the jacket copy and that's where you put the author bio.
James [00:48:11] Wow.
Jeff [00:48:12] And so that costs more money.
[00:48:13] [distant car horn blares]
Jeff [00:48:20] And to their credit, they went along with it, which a lot of like big publishers would not have done. I mean I was asking a lot of them.
James [00:48:44] Would you have pulled it if they didn't do it? Would you have been able to do that?
Jeff [00:48:49] I don't know. I was very persuasive.
James [00:48:52] How so? You're just being so nice to me all day, I just can't...
Jeff [00:49:02] Because my argument to them, which is a legit argument —
James [00:49:07] Okay.
Jeff [00:49:09] This is something that distinguishes the book in the world that by having an A-side and a B-side, and by having it be a flip, that gives reviewers immediately something to talk about.
It's organic to the subject of music because you play A-side to B-side. And so it's an organic gimmick that helps it to stand out in the marketplace and makes it easier to make it stand out for reviewers, which I think it's true because it got reviewed a lot more places than some of FSG’s bigger titles.
James [00:49:43] Yeah.
Jeff [00:49:43] And I think honestly, that flip was sort of like, ‘What's this? Oh it's like a cassette or an old vinyl single’. And ‘Oh, it's about music and so it had like an artistic integrity to it, but it also had a cool gimmick in a marketing way.’
And I was like, this is going to be the thing that is going to make it stand out.
James [00:49:56] Right.
Jeff [00:49:57] And this is work like your extra money for French flaps and two covers.
James [00:50:00] Yeah.
Jeff [00:50:04] Because it's going to make it stand out. And I think that's right.
James [00:50:12] No, I think that totally worked. I mean, you got a lot of reviews from a lot of places that most people don't get to have.
Jeff [00:50:17] Yeah, no, no. And I think a lot of it was because it was a novelty that was based in the organic sort of literary nature of the project.
James [00:50:31] Mhm.
Jeff [00:50:31] That it didn't seem like it wasn't cheap. It felt really legit. It felt like an artistic part of the book that really helped. It probably got some reviewers to read it, who wouldn't have read it, like they get, like, you know, ten books a week. And this probably went to like the top of their stand because this book has two covers, you know?
James [00:50:52] I don't want you to fully repeat yourself from earlier today, but I just feel like to say you want to try something different like that—
Jeff [00:51:07] It was organic to the project, you know? I mean, it wasn't—
James [00:51:08] No, it's not something you chose to have because it looks cool, you know, make my book look neat. It's kind of a necessity for this to work to the best level it should.
And if you have to put it out, we should put up the best level of work we should. Smaller publishers might not have that capability due to money constraints. But—
Jeff [00:51:20] It would have been harder.
James [00:51:22] But they seem to be the most open for experimental work. So where's the line with that?
Jeff [00:51:28] I don't know that there is a line.
James [00:51:29] So like a major usually isn't going to be down with, I would say, too much experimental work. I don't want to completely bash them, but too much expensive experimental work. But indie seems down for experimental work and really wanting to put the project out as it should live and what comes out of it. But when there are cost issues.
Jeff [00:51:53] Yeah. It’s harder
James [00:51:53] And we can't rely on the major publishers to do stuff that's experimental. What do we do?
Jeff [00:52:01] I mean, I think it's I think the situation's much more fluid, and the way I've come to understand it is that it's in some ways as much editor-based as it is publisher-based. When Mira Corpora was sent out. The nicest and most perceptive rejections I got were from major publishers who couldn't get it through their committee, who loved it, to have really smart things to say about it.
And most of the nastiest rejections came from the publishers who didn't get it. And hated it. And it was really eye-opening to see. That some small presses who I thought would have been right up their alley, actively didn't like the book or actually didn't get it. And like some dude at Random House actually had a much smarter take on the book and would have liked to have bought it, but he couldn't get it through.
And so it was really interesting because you would think on the face of it and, you know, until Two Dollar Radio came along and they were great and like got the book and totally understood and were really fearless about it. And I'm very grateful to that.
[Jeff clears his throat]
Jeff [00:53:09] But you would think on the face of it, Mira Corpora is clearly a small press book, but actually, it came much closer to four or five major publishers than it did any other indie, apart from Two Dollar Radio.
James [00:53:21] Really?
Jeff [00:53:21] Yeah, it wasn't close, at any of these other indies. The rejections weren't like, you know, we'd like to do this, but we've accepted too many other books or something similar or whatever.
Like it was really like, hell no.
James [00:53:27] Uh. [inaudible disgust with indie publishing community] [internally chastising]
Jeff [00:53:31] Yeah…Yeah.
James [00:53:36] Why do you think that is?
Jeff [00:53:42] I mean, I don't know, but it was eye-opening in terms of how subjective the taste is and how it really has to do with, like, who's the editor reading it. If Jeremy Davies is your editor and he's at FSG. Jeremy's more adventurous than a lot of people at most small presses. And there are editors around who have very adventurous taste, who happen to be at larger presses. And can get some stuff through. I mean, Cal Morgan, at Riverhead, publishes some really interesting, edgy people who, like Blake [Butler], might have had a hard time getting that book published by fill-in-the-blank indie publisher.
James [00:54:37] I completely agree with that. But I would just think that maybe major publishers would have a say. Example, when I was at Nike. Designers had a little bit of a budget, it wasn't throwaway, but it was called disruption money. So you purposely invested in something that's disruptive.
Jeff [00:55:04] Right, right.
James [00:55:04] Because for the one time that it hits, it's worth it. It will pay it all the way back, the same with Max Perkins and F. Scott Fitzgerald's what first like four books were trash. And then he gets one hit and then they buy the whole back catalog. We were talking about Don DeLillo—
Jeff [00:55:18] DeLillo, yeah, because Fitzgerald's early books are the ones that hit.
James [00:55:23] Oh yeah. Oh, I flipped it around.
Jeff [00:55:24] Yeah. And it's actually The Great Gatsby that tanked.
James [00:55:26] That's hilarious.
Jeff [00:55:28] Yeah. Yeah.
James [00:55:31] Yeah. I feel like. Where did that go? Where did the investment go? I'm sure in their hearts [publishers] want to contribute to literature before they die, the people that are working there, do they ask themselves what have I done to move it forward?
Jeff [00:55:57] Probably not. I mean, I just don't. I think the mistake is like being on the outside and seeing major publishing houses as a monolith because they're not. I think the divide between indie publishers and major publishers…it's a much more porous system than people think.
James [00:56:17] Okay, can you explain it?
Jeff [00:56:19] Because I think it has a lot to do with individual editors and what they're able to get through. And so you have really adventurous editors at FSG for a while, or, for instance, at Harper Perennial for a while.
James [00:56:33] Perennial, for sure.
Jeff [00:56:32] I mean, they're all gone now. But there was a period of like five years where Harper Perennial was publishing stuff that was in many ways edgier than stuff that was appearing on indie presses.
James [00:56:41] 300 Million?
Jeff [00:56:42] Yeah. But I mean, there was just up and down, up and down the line, you know. I mean, for instance, I haven't read the new Joy Williams yet, but it’s coming out of Knopf. But I bet you that's a wilder book than anything than most indie books that have been published. The Joy Williams because she's like seventy-five years old or whatever. She's been grandfathered into this in a certain way that she's able to be published by Knopf. She’s a wild ride. Like wild, strange, experimental. Like weird, really weird stuff that's generally weirder than most things I find on indie presses.
I just think that some of these divides are artificial because if you have an editor who has some money to spend and has really great taste and has a sense of how to sell someone at a major publishing house, they can in some ways have a more progressive publishing list than someone who's on a much smaller publisher.
James [00:57:46] Because they have to bank their budget on something that’ll work?
Jeff [00:57:49] Well, maybe because some of the people honestly, at some of the smaller publishers, they also have, you know, maybe their tastes are more conservative, you know, or maybe they have an idea of like what a Greywolf book should be or what a Tin House book should be or what an Apocalypse Party book should be. I think once a house starts to get an idea of what their identity is like, it can be tricky because, you know, something has to conform to that.
James [00:58:21] That is really true, indie presses usually find an identity and lean to it.
Jeff [00:58:25] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's problematic.
James [00:58:27] Yes, it is. You're right. I never thought about that.
Jeff [00:58:29] Yeah. And so, like, you could write something that's really awesome and disruptive, but if it doesn't fit any of the identities of the publishers you're going to—
James [00:58:36] You're fucked.
Jeff [00:58:37] Yeah. In fact, you might have a better chance at a major house because they don't have that sort of same identity issue because Random House is Random House. But if you have some editor who's trying to put together a cool list and sees the potential in something. And is willing to stick his neck out, or her neck out, and take a flyer on something. They might actually be more receptive. Don't get me wrong, I think indie presses in a lot of cases are doing the Lord's work, as they say in the South.
James [00:59:13] Sure. [internally acknowledges the Lord]
Jeff [00:59:13] And, you know, a lot of the really important stuff is coming from indie presses. And I do think indie presses have a much better idea of trying to stick with an author and build a career. They also don't have the sort of money that allows someone to even just quit one of their side hustles.
James [00:59:32] No. Sure.
Jeff [00:59:33] You know, and that's part of like building a career is being able to be like, well, you know, I made enough money from this book that I can quit this job. That's an extra ten hours a week I get to write.
James [00:59:43] Sure.
Jeff [00:59:44] You know, and that means the next book comes a year sooner.
James [00:59:51] Mhm.
Jeff [00:59:51] So that's sort of the tricky thing. But I do think major publishers are very shortsighted about building lists the same way record companies have just thrown out the whole idea of catalog artists. And catalog writers for the most part.
And it's partly contributing to what's destroying literature because there's just not these…it's harder to follow the progress of a writer, you know, there were like eight different houses and like four of their books are out of print and like, there's no momentum and there's no, you know, as opposed to someone like a Cormac McCarthy who doesn't hit until after Blood Meridian.
James [01:00:37] Sure.
Jeff [01:00:37] And he's got like five books, but then, those are all in print and you can get them. And now that you've read The Crossing, the first of the border trilogy, it's a bestseller and you love it. Now you go back and you can read all these other books real easily.
James [01:00:49] But isn't that the same same thing where the budget people are truly, at the end of the day, making the calls, even at the major publishers?
Jeff [01:00:55] I mean, yeah. I think the budget people more and more have an influence. But I do think there are individual editors at houses that can get around them for at least limited periods of time.
James [01:01:10] Because I think, like, you know, if they get around them, they take someone on for their debut, it's a flop, and the editor wants to come back and say, no, no, no, I want to invest in this artist.
But the budget people have numerical justification from their end.
Then we're in an impasse.
Jeff [01:01:25] Yeah, I mean, that's where, like Cormac McCarthy and DeLillo didn't get paid a lot of their early books. So Random House wasn't out a lot of money because, even though McCarthy didn't sell very well, they didn't pay him two hundred thousand dollars for The Orchard Keeper. They paid him like a thousand dollars for The Orchard Keeper.
James [01:01:48] I mean, like for people like me, who have to have a job. I can't call it a day job because I work at night, it's kind of confusing, but like. If it gets me in for the opportunity, I would maybe forego some of an advance to work with someone that I trusted. Is that not everybody’s outlook on it? I'm confused by that.
Jeff [01:02:26] It doesn't seem to work that way.
James [01:02:28] Bummer.
Jeff [01:02:28] Because I think they're like, we either want it or we don't and we're gonna pay. I mean, they might say, like, we can only pay this amount and it's not very much.
James [01:02:37] Yeah. Exactly.
Jeff [01:02:37] But if they want it, like they'll make an offer, you can't be like, oh, I'll do it for free what do you think?
James [01:02:44] Oh, I would never do that. [waves hand to indicate love of money] No, no. I'm just saying in the most extreme circumstance. I'm not saying that like that's a thing.
Jeff [01:02:50] I mean I know situations where there have been writers who I know who would have foregone a lot of money to work with a certain press, and the press still wasn't interested at that very much.
James [01:03:01] That's so embarrassing.
Jeff [01:03:03] Yeah, and like. Some of those folks went on to do really well at other presses.
James [01:03:10] That's gotta hurt your feelings.
Jeff [01:03:12] It should if you pass on a book that did really well.
James [01:03:16] But that's got to happen all the time.
Jeff [01:03:17] Yeah, it does. It does. I mean, that's one thing that's never talked about is all the books that were like passed up and then did well and then did really well in some cases made someone's career, which seemed like a legit way that had been passed on by lots of really esteemed editors who are known for their "taste".
I mean, to me, just like movies, people like to pretend they know what sells. And yeah, maybe within a certain margin, that's true. But there's a lot of things that—like it's art, you just don't know it's going to connect.
You know, if you know how to talk about something and how to get it out there like that really does make a huge difference. And it makes a difference between something that sells and doesn't sell [for] the exact same book.
James [01:04:14] Being able to talk about the project you're working on.
Jeff [01:04:19] And the problem with publishing is that in a lot of cases, they're actually not very good at publishing books and getting them into the hands of the readers who would like them.
James [01:04:27] Really?
Jeff [01:04:28] Yeah, it's not a super functional industry.
James [01:04:32] Where's the dysfunction?
Jeff [01:04:36] [deep breath]
Jeff [01:04:37] I think that a lot there's a lot of ideas in marketing about “what works” that are unexamined. And when a book doesn't work, there's no real accountability.
No one goes back to be like, oh, did we make the wrong marketing decision?
It's immediately lumped against the writer and the editor.
James [01:04:52] It's the artist's fault…
Jeff [01:04:53] Yeah. And so it's not like, oh, well, maybe actually that cover we put on that was terrible and maybe that caused the problem or hey, maybe this idea to try and sell it to book clubs just really backfired. Or maybe this idea of trying to reach a really edgy audience was wrong because actually the people who liked it were actually a very different audience.
There's no going back and really examining what went wrong so you can fix it. It's just sort of like people shooting from the hip. They have their ideas and it works or it doesn't work.
And [laughs] if it doesn't work, the people who are blamed are the people who didn't make those decisions. And it's fundamentally dysfunctional.
James [01:05:34] That is...What? Wait, wait—
Jeff [01:05:36] But if it works, the marketing people are geniuses. And if it doesn't work, well, you know, that's an offer we didn't need. And the editor screwed up.
James [01:05:43] So in either case, the artist is responsible and receives the credit for the wrong things? Because if it does well, it's not due to them, and if it does bad that it's completely their fault?
Jeff [01:05:58] Yeah. So, I mean, it's similar in movies like no one goes back to look at, like, what went wrong with a marketing campaign for a movie because they're on to like the next eight movies that need to come out. They don't have time to reflect.
And yet they pretend like this capitalism is actually working and they still know, even though they haven't gone back to do the work, to see what's working here and what's not working.
James [01:06:26] But we've been talking about that all day.
Jeff [01:06:27] It's this illusion of the competency of capitalism.
James [01:06:37] That doesn't take into account magic?
Jeff [01:06:40] It doesn't take into account people's idiocy.
James [01:06:42] Yeah.
Jeff [01:06:44] It doesn't take into account that like…we buy into these assumptions so much that we don't actually examine them to see, like, when they're completely faulty.
James [01:06:57] Even seems like…okay…
Jeff [01:06:59] I mean, the magic thing's a different thing that we're talking about. I think I'm just talking literally about like business—
James [01:07:09] Business-wise I think that when you're dealing with the business side of art you can not only rely on models.
Jeff [01:07:17] Yeah, absolutely.
James [01:07:19] If the work is unique, every part of it, including the sales, has to be from the ground up.
I would think. Again, you're talking to someone who’s never worked in the publishing industry, I don't know if they go through it like that.
Jeff [01:07:30] It's a little bit more like a cookie-cutter thing, which is why a lot of the books are the same, because they're easy to market, because it's just like the other four books you marketed. That's why they have comp titles, because they want to know what it's like that we can compare the numbers on. So we can just do that. We can do what we did for Book X and it will work for Book Y, it's going to work for your book and we don't have to think about it. We don't have to design an original strategy.
And I understand, like, there's only so many hours in the day and every book can't get unique treatment. But there are certain books that do need unique treatments to sell and with a unique treatment would sell, where there are certain artists and writers who like, if you think about it, if you keep them around, by the third or fourth book, they're really going to produce something amazing. And you had these earlier books that people are going to go back to and read and really appreciate now.
James [01:08:22] It's a long-term investment. Buried treasure.
Jeff [01:08:27] It's having faith in what you're working on is going to have lasting power and have a commercial impact beyond the first two months.
And a lot of people don't have faith in that, and sure, a lot of folks don't deserve that faith.
James [01:08:50] I agree.
Jeff [01:08:50] There are certain artists who need that faith in order to, like, actually get to a certain place. And a lot of it. I would say. It's a lot of the most long-term artists that we still think about and read and listen to are in fact exactly those types of artists.
James [01:09:11] Do you think that that's done with forever?
Jeff [01:09:14] I hope not. I mean, it would be great to think that there are editors out there who could be in positions of power as we're talking about. There's so much upheaval in publishing right now that is happening that would have a more long-term view and would understand not only the artistic sense of it but the business sense of having a long-term view of growing careers for certain writers. And then looking at an investment over four books, as opposed to looking over one book or maybe two books at the most.
James [01:09:50] Sure.
Jeff [01:09:52] And looking at, like consciously building someone's career the way that, you know, old record labels used to do. That you build up a career slowly and then that career keeps sort of repaying. I don't know. I mean, I think the biggest crisis in publishing is people aren't reading. I mean, that's the biggest problem. And that's not being addressed.
Jeff [01:10:17] [sucks water through straw sorrowfully]
James [01:10:19] But like the reason, they're not reading...I mean...I don't like a lot of books, I guess.
Jeff [01:10:29] [laughs] I don't either.
James [01:10:32] I used to be a completionist [with books]. Now. Dude, if it sucks, I close it. I feel like maybe I should finish it to force myself through it.
Jeff [01:10:41] Meh.
James [01:10:41] But I mean, I have how many more years left to read? It's gotta do something for me.
Jeff [01:10:49] Yeah, totally, but I mean, I do think there are a lot of writers out there who people would connect with. But you have to be a connoisseur to even know who they are.
James [01:10:59] Oh my God. You have to have a recommendation from someone who's really steeped in it.
Jeff [01:11:03] Yeah. And that's unfortunate because those are in general the type of books that actually make people into readers, people who are like, oh, I didn't think reading was for me.
James [01:11:12] Yes.
Jeff [01:11:13] But they'll never, ever find those books. And that is the problem, and I think this is why we need publishers who are able to see, oh, these are books that are really sort of breaking the mold so we can actually create new readers.
James [01:11:28] Okay, but there's also an element of being accessible.
Jeff [01:11:34] But I think the first time I read Scott McClanahan, I was like, how is this not super popular and accessible?
James [01:11:42] That's how I feel about all his books.
Jeff [01:11:44] No, I mean, I read Stories I which I think he self-published.
James [01:11:48] Yes.
Jeff [01:11:49] And I read it. And I was like, how does some publishing person not see, just from this, immediately that this guy is a superstar in the making and totally one hundred percent accessible? I could give this to my grandmother today.
James [01:12:05] And she'd get it.
Jeff [01:12:07] Yeah.
James [01:12:07] And probably enjoy it.
Jeff [01:12:08] Yeah. Probably enjoy it. So there are some people like that where it just seems obvious to me. And yet, like, he had to self-publish that book.
James [01:12:22] It's obvious the system is broken.
Jeff [01:12:24] And then there's also certain books that I think I mean, I was told by one person from an independent press that you need a PhD to understand Mira Corpora and that there were no readers out there who are equipped to read it.
James [01:12:36] What?
Jeff [01:12:38] Yeah. And I had a number of the readers, the people who emailed me were like seventeen and eighteen-year-olds—
James [01:12:47] Yeah it's a rad book.
Jeff [01:12:48] Who really dug it and were like, oh, it's so cool. You know, fiction could do that.
James [01:12:52] That's what you want.
Jeff [01:12:53] And they didn't read it as an experimental book. They just read it is like this cool book that, like, spoke to them.
James [01:12:59] Experimental doesn't mean challenging all the time. Experimental means different.
Jeff [01:13:04] Yeah.
James [01:13:05] I would think that a major publisher would think to have someone who's on the access level and is a gateway like Dennis Johnson was my gateway. Like when I read Jesus's Son I was like ohhh I like books again.
Jeff [01:13:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
James [01:13:21] Maybe it was Palahniuk. But I remember just being like wherever this is, where are the connecting branches? And then it just got bigger and bigger and bigger, but you have to have an entry point.
Jeff [01:13:30] Totally.
James [01:13:30] Like it's like you got to have an effect, got to have your alt pop like, like not pop—
Jeff [01:13:34] Well I mean, you know Palahniuk, or however you say his name, because of Fight Club and it's in the culture because a major house published it. And like that's really important to like have those things that get on the front table of Barnes & Noble.
James [01:13:51] Mhm.
Jeff [01:13:51] That some kid can find and be like, oh my god, what is this?
James [01:13:53] Right. And so where's the marketing department on that?
Jeff [01:14:02] [laughs] I don't know, I mean. I really think they're people who have a vision. I mean, I think the reason that Tyrant Books did so well, and Gian did so well, was because he had a vision and he was fearless about like, if I like something, I can figure out how to sell it to people.
James [01:14:25] Mhm.
Jeff [01:14:25] Because I don't believe that my tastes are so esoteric and that there's something. I can figure out a way to convince people why they might like it too.
And I think when you operate from that standpoint, as opposed to the idea of, it has to be commercial for it to go out, as opposed to trusting your taste and saying I can figure out how to sell this, you know, as opposed to it needs to be ready-made to be sold.
I see it in my students at Davidson. They don't read…They don't read…They're college kids at this supersmart liberal arts university who don't read at all. And that's depressing.
James [01:15:13] Yeah, it is.
Jeff [01:15:14] And I think it's a crisis and I think they don't read for a lot of reasons, but a lot of the books they find boring, I think you need to have something that's going to try and speak to and try and like engage people reading it.
I mean, I honestly think you need something almost like the milk people did when they had their “Got Milk?” campaign, like all the milk people, got together and started promoting the idea of drinking milk because it wasn't about the [indecipherable] brand or whatever brand. It was about the idea of everyone stopped drinking milk and we need to get people to drink milk again.
People are starting to stop reading. All these publishers would be smart for them to get together and have a campaign about just like reading in general.
James [01:15:53] Yeah.
Jeff [01:15:54] You know, because at least that's a place to start. To get that back into the culture. Yeah, I mean, I do think, like, that's…I do think that's an issue, and I do think actually in today's super information-saturated culture, there's something very meditative and focusing about reading a book, the physical act of reading, is actually something really restorative in today's culture. I think it's actually really good for people's mental health.
James [01:16:24] I think it's important to people's mental health and I would say it is not the main cause, but it is aiding the spread of this mental health crisis.
Jeff [01:16:34] Yeah.
James [01:16:35] And also, you can talk about ideas through books alone and not be worried about other people seeing what you said, because it's not a substrate that's connected to anything else—
Jeff [01:16:44] Yep.
James [01:16:44] But it is remote. So you get your social media remoteness, you get a message from someone else, but you are not attached or liable to anything. It is a personal experience.
Jeff [01:16:54] Yeah.
James [01:16:55] And it's especially, not to be a baby, but there are special books for people.
Jeff [01:17:00] Of course.
James [01:17:00] Like I'm sure you have some words that are a landmark in your life. At least for me, like becoming a writer. I didn't claim to be a writer. I thought I was going to be a musician. And then there's this moment where I was like "Fuck. I'm a writer."
Jeff [01:17:12] [diabolical laughter]
James [01:17:12] Like, damn, I knew it wasn't going to be the art form I wanted. But it's because of the books that I read where I went, “Oh, there it is”…they can…they can be special to you.
Jeff [01:17:23] Of course.
James [01:17:23] You can define yourself by the book you like the most.
Jeff [01:17:27] There's something very intimate about a really great book that you connect with. It gets into your mind in a way that I think a lot of art forms don't. I think that there's something very primal. I think music is probably the most primal art form. And I think there's something really special about cinema and the way images can get into you. But there's something about the amount of time you spend with the book and the way you're reading it into your own mind. It can really, I think, rewire your synapses in a way that I don't think other art forms can do.
James [01:17:55] Well, it's also like if you're not a creative person, you're actively engaging with your imagination.
Jeff [01:18:00] Yeah.
James [01:18:00] Cause I'm just giving you visual cues.
Jeff [01:18:02] Yeah.
James [01:18:02] And then you yourself should be proud of yourself when you finish your book because you built that world.
Jeff [01:18:06] Yep.
James [01:18:07] That was you. You didn't have to, see like now, cinema has its own beauty to it because in the cinema I'm going to guide your experience, you don't have to think. You need to actually disengage building off on this unless you're thinking about the future of it. But otherwise, it is an experience for you to behold. But reading. It's like these are just hieroglyphs that have been arranged in a certain manner for you to react a certain way. But for the most part, you’re building it and you [the reader] should be proud of yourself.
Jeff [01:18:30] Yeah.
James [01:18:31] It will give you a little bit of confidence too. You should be proud of yourself for your book because it's challenging. A good challenge.
Jeff [01:18:37] Absolutely. And I think it’s increasingly sort of important one. And I think that's being overlooked.
I'm gonna run to the bathroom and get a little bit more to drink. And then let's continue.
James [01:18:55] Okay.
END OF INTERVIEW